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It is currently Wed May 22, 2013 12:15 am
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Everybody Needs to Read This Article!
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doula Michele
Senior Member
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:54 pm Posts: 7510
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Ramona wrote: If a Doula's only job is to support whatever the mother wants there is no point in having a Doula. She can "do whatever she wants" without a Doula; unless she wants a truly natural birth. There is no progress in anything by just accepting the status quo; history has taught us that. If you are resigned to accepting routine interventions that add to our infant morbidity and mortality problem, maybe you should re-evaluate why you are a Doula. It is not possible to have a positive impact on outcomes if you just don't care.
I do disagree with this..... women have doulas for all sorts of reasons, even at highly interventive births. One client with a ton of perinium and vaginal damage from a rape with a knife, didnt know what kind of birth she wanted,She was totally open to having an epiural if the pain started to trigger memories. So she hired a doula to help and support her through. And she did amazing. I have been hired by women who were having elective c-sections, and wanted support before and care after. I have been hired by women who told me up front that they were scared of pain and would be wanting an epidural, and she knew the risks...as that is what landed her with a c-section the first time. ( induction, pit, epi section) And she was trying for a vback knowing full well that she could end up in the OR again. She had her vbac with an epi. She hired me for baby #3. An elective section for an 42 week baby, who was still very high, and no cevical dilation at all.... so she thought in her mind that an elective section was going to be a better route than another failed induction.
I have also been hired by women who are totally commited to natural birth, the hire a doula, do hypno-birthing classes, yoga etc etc....and they end up with a c-section because baby's heart dropped and it would not come up.
Every woman deserves a doula if they want one. I also know a ton of women who don't have a doula and they go on to have positive unmedicated intervention free births. ( like myself). So we have no right to judge or make assumptions.
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| Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:11 am |
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roxanne600
Member
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:31 am Posts: 156 Location: MA
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Ramona wrote: Maybe I need to be clearer in what I'm saying. First of all, I have also been a Doula for a decade; I am not new to this. I don't disagree that many moms go along with whatever has been the experience of their family and friends. What I said was, mothers do not receive "LEGAL, FULLY INFORMED CONSENT" from their medical providers, and many do not have Doulas. So I don't think that you can make the assumption that if all moms knew the risks, they would make the same choices. At every birth that I have attended the medical provider has told the mother that epidurals are safe; and when questioned about the risks, they were minimized. There are situations that interventions are best for the health of the mother and/or baby; that is not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is the ROUTINE use of these interventions that are KNOWN to cause more problems. What I am also saying is that you can't say your are supporting the moms' choices; because in many cases they don't KNOW what they are choosing, therefore you are not really supporting "their choices"; you are supporting the medical profession's choices. Do you also support "membrane stripping" without the mother's knowledge and consent? Are you also familiar with "Pit to Distress"? I have been at many births, natural, external versions, Pitocin, epidural, C-Section; and no I do not "walk out". If a Doula's only job is to support whatever the mother wants there is no point in having a Doula. She can "do whatever she wants" without a Doula; unless she wants a truly natural birth. There is no progress in anything by just accepting the status quo; history has taught us that. If you are resigned to accepting routine interventions that add to our infant morbidity and mortality problem, maybe you should re-evaluate why you are a Doula. It is not possible to have a positive impact on outcomes if you just don't care. Ramona, I AM fully supporting my client's INFORMED choices because I am there to inform her of the risk of each procedure! Some clients choose to have an intervention even after the risks are explained to them, very clearly.[I][/I] Yes, I am aware of "Pit to Distress" and so are my clients. Some still choose to utilize pitocin. When that is the case, I do my best to minimize the effects in every way I can and support her through her labor. Do you not fully explain all the risks of each procedure to your clients? A doula's job is to support her client's INFOMRED choices on how to give birth. And my clients are informed. How is the world does this equate not caring? I was once hired by a client who's husband was overseas. She wanted me there primarily for the support, and planned to have a medicated birth. She knew all the risks of each intervention she planned to have and we talked about them and guess what? She still chose to utilize them. And I supported her choices because they were INFORMED choices. I was there to remind her to change position and keep her hydrated, etc. For all we know, those simple acts kept her from having a c-section. So yes, there is a point to having a doula in those cases. Do you reject clients who plan on having medicated births? Do you yell at them about the risks until they change their mind? Do you judge them? Sounds like you are the one who needs to re-evaluate why you are a doula. I'm here to support women and help them make informed choices about their care. You, apparently, are here to force women to give birth in the way you think they should.
_________________ S, mother to three great kids,
Birth and Postpartum Doula
Placenta Encapsulist
Lactivist
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| Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:42 am |
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roxanne600
Member
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:31 am Posts: 156 Location: MA
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[quote="
Since you feel this information isn't readily available what is YOUR plan to get it out to the masses in a readily accessible and understandable way? Demanding that those who dont share your outrage should no longer be doulas isn't gonna get you anywhere so what is your next step?[/QUOTE"]
Yes, what is YOUR plan, Ramona, since you seem to "care" so much more than all of us? I'd love to hear how YOU plan on changing things.
_________________ S, mother to three great kids,
Birth and Postpartum Doula
Placenta Encapsulist
Lactivist
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| Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:52 am |
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Ramona
Member
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:10 pm Posts: 68 Location: Milwaukee, WI
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This was what I said in my original post:
This article is long and technical; but after reading it, I'm having a hard time with the
"As Doulas we need to support what the mother wants". See if it has the same effect
on you. and then:
This is not "my agenda". These are scientific medical risks to routine procedures that are not evidence-based. More mothers than not, do not even have Doulas. In my experience mothers do not receive the legal "INFORMED" consent from their medical providers. They are told that these procedures are "safe". They also do not receive the true risks in hospital-based childbirth classes. I therefore feel that as Doula's it is our responsibility to mothers and babies to make sure that mothers know what they are agreeing to.
Yet many of you chose to make a lot of assumptions about me, my experience and how I practice. You did answer the question as to whether the article made you feel the same way; and the answer is obviously "no".
What I will do, is what I am doing right now and try to educate as many women as possible about how serious the medical interventions in birth are; that we use on a ROUTINE basis; with no medical justification and are counter-productive to healthy births. Again, this is not MY AGENDA, but also is supported by the National Institutes of Health, CIMS and the World Health Organization.
I don't need to re-evaluate why I am a Doula. I am a Doula and have been for ten years, because I have experienced birth, feel that it is a miracle and want to help other women to have healthy babies; that grow and develop into healthy children and adults. It has been demonstrated that using medical interventions routinely without medical need puts low-risk mothers and babies at high-risk for complications, particularly major surgery, infections, neurological problems in children, etc; and therefore does not achieve my goal.
_________________ Antepartum/ Birth Doula:needcoffee
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| Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:09 am |
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DoulaCBE
Senior Member
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:49 pm Posts: 3947 Location: Tucson, AZ
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Ramona wrote: I therefore feel that as Doula's it is our responsibility to mothers and babies to make sure that mothers know what they are agreeing to. Um, yeah. At least twice now I've said that my clients know what they're agreeing to. Somehow when I do it, it's not enough for you because I didn't express outrage at an article that is over ten years old and contains absolutely no information that is new to me. Ramona wrote: Yet many of you chose to make a lot of assumptions about me, my experience and how I practice. You did answer the question as to whether the article made you feel the same way; and the answer is obviously No. Hmm kinda like you've made assumptions that because we didn't reply with the same level of angst that you have, again over old info that we already knew that we shouldn't be doulas and are apathetic? Ramona wrote: What I will do, is what I am doing right now and try to educate as many women as possible about how serious the medical interventions in birth are; that we use on a ROUTINE basis; with no medical justification and are counter-productive to healthy births. I've been doing that my entire career, I've told you that I've been doing that my entire career, but yet you still claim that I don't care about the outcomes when I've told you that in fact I do and that I'm an outcome driven doula. But again, because I'm not shocked by the article, becasue it's old news to me and I can't work up any outrage about something that comes as no surprise to me and have already long ago formulated my plan of action and implemented it, I'm apathetic, etc, etc. Ramona wrote: I don't need to re-evaluate why I am a Doula. I am a Doula and have been for ten years, because I have experienced birth, feel that it is a miracle and want to help other women to have healthy babies; that grow and develop into healthy children and adults. It has been demonstrated that using medical interventions routinely without medical need puts low-risk mothers and babies at high-risk for complications, particularly major surgery, infections, neurological problems in children, etc; and therefore does not achieve my goal. It seems we're on the same page, minus the outrage that other doulas don't seem to share your particular spark about outdated information that isn't news to any of us. So again, why would you be outraged and make accusations that we don't care about mothers and babies just because we didn't comment on this old article and then express the outrage that you've seemed to work yourself up into over it?
_________________ ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Angie DONA Certified Birth Doula, CAPPA Certified Childbirth Educator Certified Breastfeeding Counselor, Formerly Certified Happiest Baby Educator, Pregnancy & Birth Photographer
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| Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:19 pm |
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doula Michele
Senior Member
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:54 pm Posts: 7510
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I think we all give alot of info, and preach INFORMED CONSENT. We all do this! And we all care about outcomes. BUT women all have their own emotional reasons for making the choices that they do. I only wish it was as easy as reading evidence and deciding to follow it. I would be a vegan who didn't eat sugar or wheat and would skip the rye and coke.
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| Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:57 pm |
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roxanne600
Member
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:31 am Posts: 156 Location: MA
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Ramona wrote: This was what I said in my original post:
This article is long and technical; but after reading it, I'm having a hard time with the "As Doulas we need to support what the mother wants". See if it has the same effect on you. and then:
This is not "my agenda". These are scientific medical risks to routine procedures that are not evidence-based. More mothers than not, do not even have Doulas. In my experience mothers do not receive the legal "INFORMED" consent from their medical providers. They are told that these procedures are "safe". They also do not receive the true risks in hospital-based childbirth classes. I therefore feel that as Doula's it is our responsibility to mothers and babies to make sure that mothers know what they are agreeing to. Yet many of you chose to make a lot of assumptions about me, my experience and how I practice. You did answer the question as to whether the article made you feel the same way; and the answer is obviously "no".
What I will do, is what I am doing right now and try to educate as many women as possible about how serious the medical interventions in birth are; that we use on a ROUTINE basis; with no medical justification and are counter-productive to healthy births. Again, this is not MY AGENDA, but also is supported by the National Institutes of Health, CIMS and the World Health Organization.
I don't need to re-evaluate why I am a Doula. I am a Doula and have been for ten years, because I have experienced birth, feel that it is a miracle and want to help other women to have healthy babies; that grow and develop into healthy children and adults. It has been demonstrated that using medical interventions routinely without medical need puts low-risk mothers and babies at high-risk for complications, particularly major surgery, infections, neurological problems in children, etc; and therefore does not achieve my goal.
Ramona, I find it tremendously amusing that you claim we are making assumptions about you when you were the one accusing us of "sticking our heads in the sand", "not caring", etc. All because we didn't respond fast enough or emotionally enough for you to an old article filled with information that everyone here knows about!!
EVERY DOULA HERE has explained how we do the same thing you do by providing our clients with information on all interventions used.
So I guess I'm left wondering what's stuck up your butt to cause you to have such negative attitude towards us?
Either way, I'm done with this ridiculous thread.
_________________ S, mother to three great kids,
Birth and Postpartum Doula
Placenta Encapsulist
Lactivist
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| Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:07 pm |
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DoulaYvonne
Senior Member
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:32 pm Posts: 6137
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[color="Blue"] Hello Everyone. This is your friendly Super Moderator here.
I have been watching this thread, as have the rest of the staff, for signs that it may escalate to a point where we make some of our members uncomfortable. I believe that point has been reached.
Alldoulas is a community to support every doula. We all have our hot-button topics and our passionate interests, however, when aggression and name calling enter the mix it has gone beyond passion and into an area that will not be tolerated on the forums.
I encourage any member who is unaware of "the rules" to familiarize yourself with our Community Guidelines. They can be found here: http://www.alldoulas.com/index.php?page=cgs as well as under the tabs section at the top of the page. Its these rules that we rely upon to make AllDoulas a friendly place for all and to keep the peace when disagreements occur. 
For now I will be locking this thread for any more comments. It does not appear to be constructive with the sharing of ideas, suggestions, or support.
Should any member feel the need to discuss this further they may message me at any time.[/color]
_________________[color="RoyalBlue"]Y v o n n e
Any statements expressed in this forum are mine and are not a representation of any organization I am affiliated with.[/color]
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| Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:44 am |
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